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Sep. 12th, 2001 | 05:00 am

i agree with my friend whorlpool. the men who committed these acts were far from cowards. no matter how misguided your cause, to die for it takes immense courage. the cowards are the men who fed their fanaticism for their own political gains, sent them on this mission, and now sit comfortably in their homes.

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Comments {25}

Carol

my thoughts exactly

from: tequilasunset
date: Sep. 12th, 2001 05:57 am (UTC)
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"There are two sides of a story, and then
there's the truth."

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Invisibella

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from: invisibella
date: Sep. 12th, 2001 06:51 am (UTC)
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I get your point about believing so much in a cause you're willing to risk your life. But, right now, I'm having a hard time swallowing that thought. Courageous to be a puppet, a murderer? To look into the faces of innocent, unsuspecting people and take their lives? Was it belief or brainwashing?

Well, I'll be challenging the airways this weekend. I don't think if someone on that plane looks me in the face, than takes my life, my family would want to hear how courageous that killer was.

Not meant to offend, Dave, I just think this is all still too raw for me. I'm not able to look at the big picture....it's just too soon, my brother's not home yet, and I'll be getting on a plane Saturday.....

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(no subject)

from: ex_wing191
date: Sep. 12th, 2001 07:01 am (UTC)
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Were Eric Harris & Dylan Klebold courageous too?

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Kevin

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from: low_delta
date: Sep. 12th, 2001 08:40 am (UTC)
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I think the point was more that they were not really *cowards*, rather than that they were courageous.

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(no subject)

from: ex_wing191
date: Sep. 12th, 2001 08:42 am (UTC)
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OK

Were E. Harris and D. Klebold cowards?

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Kevin

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from: low_delta
date: Sep. 12th, 2001 10:48 am (UTC)
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I don't think so. They decided on what they would do, and they did it. They knew they would be in trouble for it - dead, most likely - and they took action anyway.

They were driven by desperation, like the terrorists, but they were driven nonetheless.

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(no subject)

from: ex_wing191
date: Sep. 12th, 2001 10:54 am (UTC)
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Isn't a coward a person who is controlled by their fears?

What is at the root of acts of terrorism if it isn't fear: fear of the "west", fear of being ostracised or different, fear of those whose valutes are different than their own, etc. ?

I think fanaticism is ultimately a manifestation of fear.

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Kevin

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from: low_delta
date: Sep. 12th, 2001 04:25 pm (UTC)
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So which fears would you say controlled the ones who masterminded this plan? Fear of a world dominated by the decadent west? Fears of the continued existence of Israel? Fear of not making a mark on the world.

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CONTravenE

(no subject)

from: ravenritings
date: Sep. 12th, 2001 08:19 pm (UTC)
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fear dominated the state of those who served those who masterminded this plan ..
didnt you do your homework sonny?
*note my patronistic tone of voice*
didnt you read george Orwells book 1984?
Didnt you study into the propaganda germany used to turn the poeple against the world?
If you didnt support this authoritarian rule, you were simply put to death...
the pictures of all those who did not "honour" this ideal from the masterminds, and such the conequences is their blood shed that dominated a people in terror.
fear oppressed turnes to revolt, such a fuel for war.

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(no subject)

from: ex_wing191
date: Sep. 13th, 2001 06:00 am (UTC)
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Good questions.

All of the above? I don't know.

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Sunshine

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from: sunshine_two
date: Sep. 12th, 2001 07:03 am (UTC)
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From several conversations at work yesterday, apparently, in various muslim religions.... if you die while killing the enemy, it is a supreme honour, and gains you access to their equivalent of heaven Dave. Very likely, they don't consider the loss of life as big a deal as you are portraying.

While I don't believe in the hate/revenge propganda that some people are spewing from their LJ's these days (it is their own opinion tho)... I don't think we should be honouring those that commit attrocious acts. Perhaps I'm mis-interpreting your journal entry tho.



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Away Above the Chimney Tops

(no subject)

from: boobirdsfly
date: Sep. 12th, 2001 11:40 pm (UTC)
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you forgot though... that in the muslim religion, the biggest sin is to take your own life....

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Raj KAJ

the line is a fine one, but I wouldn't use the word courage.

from: scottobear
date: Sep. 12th, 2001 07:21 am (UTC)
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I think fanatic works better than courage...courage implies heroism to me, and I fail to see anything heroic about suicide, and killing thousands of innocents without warning.

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not always right, but often not wrong

Re: the line is a fine one, but I wouldn't use the word courage.

from: ravengirl
date: Sep. 12th, 2001 07:33 am (UTC)
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good point.
i agree, "fanatic" is more suitable.

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serendipity

Re: the line is a fine one, but I wouldn't use the word courage.

from: serendipity
date: Sep. 12th, 2001 09:03 am (UTC)
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I agree. I don't consider it a courageous thing when people who have been brainwashed all their lives simply act on their conditioning with no respect for their own lives or for the lives of others. There is nothing courageous about taking the lives of innocent civilians, nothing courageous about knowing your life and theirs will end in an instant, that you will suffer no long-term, lingering pain, that you will not be imprisoned or tortured or held accountable for your hateful and fanatical actions.

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Re: the line is a fine one, but I wouldn't use the word courage.

from: ex_wing191
date: Sep. 12th, 2001 01:00 pm (UTC)
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I think fanaticism is rooted in fear.

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Hala NUHA

Re: the line is a fine one, but I wouldn't use the word courage.

from: sweetalyssm
date: Sep. 12th, 2001 12:50 pm (UTC)
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that's right!

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Raj KAJ

(no subject)

from: scottobear
date: Sep. 12th, 2001 12:28 pm (UTC)
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http://www.superosity.com/

maybe this is a better summation. :)

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Invisibella

(no subject)

from: invisibella
date: Sep. 12th, 2001 03:20 pm (UTC)
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Very good summation...great find, Scotto!

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rachel (bean) mirabel

(no subject)

from: mirabel
date: Sep. 12th, 2001 02:00 pm (UTC)
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i agree. i thought that every time i heard the word used. there are few people who are willign to die for what they believe in.

and i dont believe they were ruled by thier fear anyways. by thier anger, yes, by thier need for vengance yes, but probably not by fear.

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CONTravenE

(no subject)

from: ravenritings
date: Sep. 12th, 2001 07:11 pm (UTC)
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ABSOLUTE BULL-FUCK!!
not cowards my fucking arse!!!
it takes courage to LIVE man...
hey dont forget whorlpool is the one saying how he was suicidal and was hopeless and what the fuck...
yeah..then join a fanatic cause and give your life to that and suck off it and fool yourself to think you are not cowards...
those who committed the terrorist attacks were sick..
were not couragous in the very fucking least!!!
life gets painful at times
try live with that...
it is NOT couragouse to take your life out...
you only have to be totally wacked out on fear so driven past any sense or commonsense and its EASY to kill yourself!! thats the easy way out...
you try and actually survive terror,
get over it and get on with a healthy existance...
THAT is courage!

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CONTravenE

the scourge

from: ravenritings
date: Sep. 12th, 2001 07:44 pm (UTC)
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nuther thing...
how fucking selfish is it to kill yourself and kill others too...
for every one person killed
there are about 10 mourners!!!

suiciders are selfish and insensitive to those close to them, friends and family and such their commitments to the community...
they bring about instability,
for how can you rely on them, their life, if they take it in vain..they are a direct danger to those who care about them, they threaten disease with thier bad intentions not resolved-as they are too cowardly to define their problems to resolve such so their problems continue to fester and so are oppressed to be the fuel that drives them on, the fuselage of them flying high so great is from massing all such the complexities of human sense in their life, oppressed by denial is makes them dence, thick n real stupid like a not so complex creature is as they be one, or one of a big wam bang dangle of a sensationalality. And so of this powerful sensastion they make a stand as if they are faultless things toward some ideal, so are they empowered by their own contempt for life..
tis a scourge..
and they weaken the state, making us more vaunerable to an opposing faction of the very same kind of disease..

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CONTravenE

(no subject)

from: ravenritings
date: Sep. 12th, 2001 08:06 pm (UTC)
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those men were made into things...
things have no choice
things have no self preservation
things can be worked precicely
things dont consider loved ones who mourn their loss
things can be traded, things can be bartered, things can be stolen and given away...
AND...things can be what we make of each other
when we dont regard each other as
capable of having ones own choice,
having the sense of self preservation,
the ability to learn from our faults
and the reciprocation of care in our relationships...
when we can define those who simply deny themselves the ability n such of all these qualities that make us human..
so we are aware of them being inhumane...
being things.

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Kevin

(no subject)

from: low_delta
date: Sep. 12th, 2001 09:32 pm (UTC)
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I guess I'm in agreement with you on this, to a point. I felt that these people were just doing what they thought had to be done. No courage, no cowardice, just action.

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(no subject)

from: peng_niao
date: Sep. 12th, 2001 08:10 pm (UTC)
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I completely agree with you on that. It's a very well made point.

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